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The Sands of Time Club is a place for readers of Star Harbor Nights and related stories to (relatively) freely post their thoughts on characters, plotlines, and so on. I reserve the right to moderate the content of this community... keep it clean and friendly, and I'll keep posting unrestricted.
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Oct. 13th, 2004 @ 10:11 am Premonitions and Postulations
Discussion
holyxoox
xooxer:
From:crispiness
Date:October 14th, 2004 10:33 am (UTC)
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But surely the bishop couldn't have known that Pamela wasn't straight? I mean, she hadn't even realised it herself. Ray worked it out, but he was a lot, uh, closer to her than he was. Unless of course the bishop was also ... nah, surely not. :P

seaflame - But I thought *all* politicians were evil supervillains? (Sorry, couldn't resist. :D) But seriously folks ... yeah, it's definitely possible.

I have a crazy theory: It's the Dock Shadow! In SHN 7.6, he refers to burning buildings and blazing oilfields. Why fire, particularly? The only other heroic-ish act he refers to is jumping between buildings, and that would have been because Perfect was trying to. And he says that he only does his mentor routine for vigilantes who are "worth it". It sounds like he means worth mentoring, but is he really just keeping tabs on her? Or is he just gaining her trust so that he can gradually disillusion her about superpowers so that he can later TURN HER TO THE DARK SIDE?!?!?!?!!!1!!one!1!!!eleven!1!.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it. You decide.
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From:xooxer
Date:October 14th, 2004 03:59 pm (UTC)
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Someone as prominent, and large, as Pam couldn't possibly go unnoticed for long. Bishop Roy referred to rumors he'd heard, and I'm sure there are plenty to be heard about Pam, not least of which is her forwardness and affection for female friends and associates. It's probably so widely rumored that's she's into chicks to reach urban legend status, if not for the truth in it.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it.

Or not enough. Dock is a big, old-time player who practically single-handedly wiped out crime in the harbor district, and has been keeping it out since. He's not superhuman, mutant, or the like, so to him, leaping between buildings may be heroic. It certainly wasn't easy for Mynx.

He probably is keeping tabs on her, I wouldn't put it past him. Likewise, I'm sure Perfect has thoroughly researched Dock Shadow too. It's sort part of being a detective, right Bruce?

From:crispiness
Date:October 15th, 2004 12:26 pm (UTC)
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Hmm, perhaps you're right. The bishop certainly reacted very strongly when Charles Singer told him who he was marrying (SHN 9.4).

I noticed another bit again as well:

"Now, Chuck," the Bishop said, a bit condescendingly, "you would do well to remember that we all have our own sins to worry about. Luckily, they all wash clean with blood."

...

"The blood of Christ, of course, Bishop?" Charles Singer prompted.

"Oh, yes, of course. Exactly. Excuse me, but I really must mingle..."


That strikes me as very, very suspicious. The bishop seemed in a bit of a hurry to leave after his little slip. This is even more chilling if you remember that if the bishop was responsible for the church bombing, he would have killed Charles/Chuck, and potentially Stacy and Lily as well. "Washing clean" their sins? Shudder.

And the Seeress' comments about the bishop (when talking to Johnny Dark just after speaking to the priest) implicate him further, as I think someone may have mentioned above. There's no longer any doubt at all my mind that the bishop is involved. I'm still inclined to think he's a pawn, though; he doesn't have enough of a motive for burning lots of empty churches.

As for the Dock Shadow - yes, he is heavy-handed, but I think he'd have to be. I don't seriously suspect him of anything... though of course it's never wise to dismiss something just for being unlikely. :)
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From:xooxer
Date:October 15th, 2004 03:55 pm (UTC)
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Hrm, I guess I didn't read the Seeress' words carefully enough the first time around. Yes, I do now think the Bishop is involved. Father Michael was truly concerned, and he must have taken her advice. As she foretold, he did become closer to his God. I still stand by my original suspicion, though. The Bishop may have provided the human hands she spoke of, but something which transpired at the Trinity Ball still does not sit well with me.
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From:xooxer
Date:October 15th, 2004 04:06 pm (UTC)
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Oh, excuse me, it was not at the Ball. It was in episode 3.1 Bar Games. Heh, sure is a lot of material to keep in mind. :P
From:crispiness
Date:October 16th, 2004 02:26 am (UTC)
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Ouch. I didn't actually look at that episode (SHN 5.5) again until just now, but you're right. Her advice/prophecy/whatever DID come true:

"Tell him how deeply the fires concern you, and all your doubts will be removed, I assure you. Your fears will be a thing of the past, and you may find yourself closer to your God than you've ever been."

The Seeress is more ruthless than I thought ... To be fair, though, it wasn' intended to happen like that. Her little bit of reverse psychology just backfired.

The woman, Sarah, and the vyrolakos thing though ... why did she literally answer the questions she's asked, knowing it would lead to bloodshed? Hrm.
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From:xooxer
Date:October 16th, 2004 03:05 pm (UTC)
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I don't really recall, but did we ever see this Sarah again?

I'm not sure if the Seeress was using reverse psychology on him. He asked her for advice, and she gave him what he wanted. He wanted answers, and he found them, in a manner. She doesn't hold priests in the highest regard, as her comments to Johnny at the end of that episode inferred. Perhaps I'm being to harsh on her, but I don't think she values life very much. As long as the powers are in balance, she's probably content to toy with people for her own amusement. She sure got a kick out of toying with Ray.

I wonder what Lily is up to these days.
From:crispiness
Date:October 17th, 2004 02:10 am (UTC)
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Not that I remember, no. It's a bit of an untied plot thread at the moment.

She was sort of using reverse psychology... the potential was there for it to be reverse psychology, anyway. But I think you're right, it most likely doesn't matter to her whether or not he survives. She was probably just seeing what would happen. She's really not very nice, is she? :P
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From:starharbor
Date:October 17th, 2004 04:31 am (UTC)
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I'm holding resolution of Sarah's plot for the future, as a pay-for-subscription outfit recently picked up my proposition for a Nazareth Falls-based serial. More details on that later. :P
From:arpiby
Date:October 17th, 2004 03:59 am (UTC)
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I don't believe Bishop Rory is reacting to Pamela being a (rumored) lesbian. Chuck does not gloss over the issue of homosexuality; he openly parades his disgust of Stacy and Lily, whereas the Bishop is more accomodating:

"Lily's no longer a part of the band," Stacy said, shifting herself forward and pulling her mate back. "Her traumatic experience has caused her to reconsider her life's mistakes."

"Some of them, anyway," Singer sniffed.

"Now, Chuck," the Bishop said, a bit condescendingly, "you would do well to remember that we all have our own sins to worry about. Luckily, they all wash clean with blood."

So what is the Bishop reacting to when he hears of Pamela? I have a hunch that, whatever it may be, it can probably be traced back to the Seeress. There are a couple possibilities here: either the Bishop is part of or a pawn of a faction opposing the Seeress and recognizes Pamela as one of her pawns, or possibly the Seeress directly manipulated the Bishop into blowing up the church, telling him something that he would have interpreted as a warning that he would have to kill Pamela to advance his own petty plot(s).

Alternately, it's possible that the Bishop was looking to sacrifice a large wedding party beforehand, and threw in with Lydia's party because he had caught wind of Chuck's impending marriage and realized a golden opportunity. The prospect of the bride being a nigh-invulnerable superheroine was an obstacle to his plan, this possibly being what forced him to resort to heavier explosives. In light of the most recent chapter, it's also possible that the Bishop is the (absent) occupant of the fourth throne in the meeting place, or somewhat more likely that he is a servant of one of the others there (most probably the Bone Lord's "human servitor" that the story mentions). Altogether I reckon it about 50/50 odds as to whether the Bishop is on the side of the Seeress & co., or on the opposing side (at least in name, as the Seeress is liable to be manipulating him heavily in either case).
From:crispiness
Date:October 17th, 2004 04:43 am (UTC)
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All good points. I suspect that the bishop is the intended occupant of the fourth seat; there could be another character that is directing the bishop though, I suppose. But I'm more inclined to suspect the bishop, because we haven't caught a glimpse of any other such character yet (unless I missed something).

This reminds me of a game of Clue. It was the Bishop in the Church with the Flammable Accelerant!
From:arpiby
Date:October 17th, 2004 10:21 pm (UTC)
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It's possible that the alliance here doesn't actually have a full fourth member, that the seat is simply intended for the Bone King's servitor and not an independent power (in which case his Excellency Rory could be the intended occupant of the seat anyways). However, I think you overlook one possibility for the fourth power: Morgenstern. He has gotten quite a bit of face time for the comparatively small part he has (directly) played in the plot so far, and depending on the cosmology of this world he may have a vested interest in seeing to it that Earth is not overrun by extradimensional invaders. He would fit in quite well with this merry little trio; the alliance is a devil's bargain if there ever was one, with all three obviously maneuvering (or planning to maneuver) against each other. The Seeress had no knowledge of him when he was introduced, but that was a very early chapter and he could be a recent addition like the cyborg.

There still isn't a lot of concrete evidence there, though; Morgenstern might just be a minor player in this, or potentially he could even be the main threat that the alliance is seeking to thwart. That would be cliche, though, and the fact of the Seeress' lack of knowledge of Morgenstern is a problem for this theory as well; but then, the Seeress only needs to know of the impending invasion and its general nature, not necessarily its leader (in fact, if what she says about extraplanar events is true, it's likely she doesn't know an awful lot about the driving force behind this looming invasion anyways).
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From:xooxer
Date:October 17th, 2004 10:38 pm (UTC)
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I haven't overlooked him, in fact, he's been my main suspect all along. If you read my posts here, you'll see I did everything but name him. My suspicions were based on his apparent ties to the higher planes, the fact that Johnny disliked him, he's kind of creepy, and that the Seeress didn't know him. I didn't want to name him until I had better evidence of his connection, but I've had my eye on him for some time.
From:arpiby
Date:October 18th, 2004 12:24 am (UTC)
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I was referring to crispiness' comment about not knowing who else could belong in the fourth seat. I had read your posts but actually thought you were hinting at Johnny; I remember the story mentioning Johnny's having had connection to a higher plane, but never Morgenstern's. It does point to a past such connection indirectly, but points to it as a bridge long since burnt, his present connections lying quite in the opposite direction (which granted is even more reason to suspect him).
From:crispiness
Date:October 18th, 2004 08:48 am (UTC)
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You're right, I did overlook Morgenstern. I forget how many times we've actually met him, to be honest. :P

Speculation is fun, but ultimately useless; there are dozens of possibilities here. I'm kind of hoping none of us guess the real one! :)
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From:xooxer
Date:October 25th, 2004 06:56 am (UTC)
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Well, we may have already guessed, but it's impossible to tell at this point. We were pretty much right about the Bishop and the Seeress, but the Bone King's role was not exactly what we had imagined.

I still believe Morgenstern was the big baddie here, too many things point to him. Doesn't his name mean morning star in german? I wonder who that could be. ¬.¬